I know that two of myfriend and I have joked about it. Sometimes joking turns into reality. I'm not sure I ever would, but my two friends may. The only problem is that the Canada may not be far enough away, geographically speaking, not socially.

Have said it before, will say it again.

Canada's a great country, but IMHO now is not the time to be deserting our country in its hour of need -- instead we need to start a program to import Canadians.

As a dual-citizen Canadian-American (Born in New York, living in Montreal) let me say that we are happy for sensible Americans to head on up. (Hell, this article ran in the Gazette up here the other day.)

As for coming on down, we've been quietly infiltrating for years in preparation, don't any of you know? :-)

my wife and i have been un-seriously tossing it around for years.

I visited Amsterdam for a short time this past winter (stranded there due to big storm on the East Coast, which I'm thankful for) and was blown away. It was bracing and exciting to be there - the energy and mood was what I would want - even expect - from an American city. It was international and multicultural, they had lots of bars, marijuana was legal, more people were riding bikes than driving, the public transportation worked brilliantly and was clean and relatively inexpensive, differences between rich and poor did not seem extreme, there was no homelessness that I saw, I went more than one full day without seeing a single cop or cop car, the red light district was also a fairly upscale residential district without any of the usual adjuncts of prositution in sight (street crime, grime, obvious drug use, etc.) And they were turning their churches into museums - literally, which I'd like to see literally and metaphorically happen here, as well. The city worked, as far as I could tell, and it was like liberal heaven. It was an exciting, free, beautiful and stimulating place to be - and it blew away, in my opinion, America's most liberal cities. This is the way the US should be, I thought - progressive, cooperative, tolerant, pragmatic and practical - and free. That "Old Europe" should have these kinds of things while the "new birth of freedom" the US once represented is sliding back into filthy, boring, frightened, regressive, hide-bound, restrictive and depressing cities and towns is awful to contemplate, but true. We should mobilize to change our country, but its a bit sad having to waste my life doing that while I could be living the ideal life elsewhere.

NickM.

Amsterdam is a great city. I had much the same reaction you did to it. Trust me, spend a little time in "Old Europe" and you get the distinct impression they are doing a lot of things right.

They lack the capability of killing huge numbers of people in a very short time.

And that, to your average neocon, is the only thing guaranteed to give him a woody....

Sagesource; the French have nukes, so Old Europe has the capacity to kill lots of people quickly.. all kidding aside, I agree Europe seems to get 'it' a whole lot better on the essential stuff than the United States. I have definately done a couple of inquiries as to the requirements of moving to Canada as their equivilent of a permanent resident/green card holder and I will just say that my decision point is around November 10, 2004 (I'll need enough time to recover from the post-election hangover--- from either celebration or depression)

Fester

The wife and I have given very serious consideration to expatriation (we also have dual citizenships). We'll stay here and fight until the election of '04. If the Chimp clings on, we've pretty much made up our mind to go.

Think New Zealand, people--I'll enjoy the company of a few fellow travelers.

New Zealand. Unspoiled. Warmer than Canada. As tolerant as Canada. Good schools. Good scenery. A better standard of living. Ignored by most of the world most of the time. If the husband & I could afford to immigrate, we would.

Yeah. And I bet Bush couldn't find it on a map!

Nothing about the 30,203 Canadians moving south?

I'm a french expat in Switzerland, and of all the countries I visited thus far, Canada and the US most impressed me. My wife and I seriously considered migrating to Canada before settling here in Switzerland. I enjoyed Canada so much I actually had real trouble flying back when I was there... But for my taste Switzerland is a real, real cool place to be. And the swiss neocons, if you can find one, are pretty much inocuous, too. Always a perk :)

Part of me refuses to believe the country can turn so right wing so quickly. Remember that Gore won the election by 500,000 votes and I remember someone saying that in 2002 the "landslide" was only a difference of 70,000 votes nationwide - hardly. I don't want to move to Canada - I want us to become Canada. I want the tolerance, the progressive thinking and the community dedication. Enough with this every man for himself. All it serves is to make the extremely rich richer and the rest of us frustrated and unfulfilled...

It's YOUR country. Stand up and fight for it!

Greetings from Vancouver,Billmon!
Here are three of my favourie local links.I probably shouldn't post them,since the less people know about us the better.But here you go anyway.
First,take a guided tour of the city:
http://www.vancouverscenes.com/
Then check out a live webcam just down the street from where I am right now:
http://www.katkam.ca/
Finally,the amazing Orca Live site from just up the coast..
http://www.orca-live.net/

Greetings from Vancouver,Billmon!

I know it well. And, once I get political asylum in Canada, I hope to get to know it even better.

I'll give you one Jim Carrey for your Billmon avec whiskey bar. OK, I'll throw in a Martin Short and a Mike Myers.

Great solution! Folks who wanna go to
Canada, go -- folks who are glad they're goin', celebrate!

Win-win for everyone!

Win-win for everyone!

Except, of course, for those who are stuck here with the dickhead conservatives and their sock puppet president.

Both threads were great to read. Canadians always love to hear what a neat place we have. Long may she wave, indeed.

I don't kid myself. I think it will continue to be very hard for us not to be dragged along the same political and cultural road as the U.S. We already are far more conservative than we once were. We have a stake in the next election. we always have a stake in an American election.

I'd welcome Billmon with open arms (I live in a small town 5 hours and two ferry rides North of Vancvouver) but I would prefer that he stay and fight for all of us.

The one most important thing that we have that the Americans is a national media. The Canadian Broadcasting Corporation does more to protect our freedom than any other institution. The American media is the biggest threat to the Canadian way of life.

Unfortunately getting into the country is not as easy as it seems at first blush. Any employer will probably have to show that the job he gives Billmon could not be filled by a Canadian. He's a writer which may make it easier. The employer may be able to declare he is a unique talent.

The employer may be able to declare he is a unique talent.

Unique yes, talent, no.

Matt Davis

I would gladly go to New Zealand! It's far away from Washington, and it's White House at least admits proudly that it's full of whores!

Unique yes, talent, no.

That's okay. You don't have to take the talent part too seriously. It is the same loophole used by exotic dancers plying their trade on this side of the border.

O Canada!
CBC news is OUTSTANDING. Their war coverage was first-rate. Almost every time I watch, they have something the US media never would: often the victims, the oppressed, the "rest of the story" you are left wondering about in the "soundbite" world of American corporate media, much less the fluff and the "popular." I am so glad we have the one CBUT station here in the Puget Sound.

Also, living just 2-3 hours from Vancouver, it would be an easy move to a similar climate. I have often thought of escaping, but like some here, I feel it is my duty, especially now, to stay and FIGHT. It is the AWARE/OUTRAGED people that America needs.

now i'm confused. is bilmon an exotic writer or a political dancer?

I came to Canada from very far away 12 years ago. Best decision I ever made. Canadians are the friendliest, most generous people you're likely to meet. Come on over!

I am so glad we have the one CBUT station here in the Puget Sound.

Those who do not get the CBC can watch the entire program off the website. The National is terrific, day in, day out. The CBC Radio is also great. Commercial free. Newscasts are here

The CBC archive is fabulous. I mean you can get lost in our history over the last 50 years. Some people might enjoy the tribute toBarbara Frum. Her son David must have her spinning in her grave.

Want to hear a speech Churchill gave on December 30th, 1941 in Ottawa? Right here.

Or how about John Lennon and Yoko Ono's "Bed-in" against the Vietnam War in 1969? Al Capp, cartoonist and self described neanderthal fascist gets in a shouting match with them.

The CBC is a Crown Corporation. Canadians collectively own it and the archive. It loses at least a billion, but I call that cheap at twice the price. The government wouldn't dare interfere with it. The corporations can't really interfere with it.

Sometimes national ownership - can we say the S word in a positive context? - is a pretty good thing.

For those would-be Canadians who would like to know more about moving up here on a permanent basis, check the CBC's Becoming Canadian" mini-site.

I'm an expat who lives in Tokyo, grew up in Vancouver, and was born in New York. I have travelled to over 20 countries, and lived in the states for about 5 years. As much as I would like have more Americans north of the border, we need progressives in the states. I can't imagine how much better the world would be if more citizens experienced the surprising civility of the rest of the world! However, since less than 10 percent of Americans hold passports '(unconfirmed source), I doubt there will be any real progress soon. If you are not naively accepting all the crap that is being rammed down your throats, you are doing the world a service by remaining in the states.

My initial reaction was also to move to Canada but seeing all the people on the web putting a lot of time, energy and money into trying to wake up the American people, I figured that I would try and fight this one out. I think when things look hopeless, you have to try harder. I don't know at what point you give up but if I reach that point, I think Canada is great in so many ways.

"The American media is the biggest threat to the Canadian way of life."

It's the biggest threat to our way of life, too.

On my blog http://dumkanukk.blogspot.com/, I discuss US vs Canada. Some remarks:

• Switzerland: My complaint was that the Swiss (because living there is so desireable: the Alémaniques (Swiss German) tend to be rather cool; I don't know about the Suisse Romands (French-speaking). Unlike Canada or New Zealand, it is very difficult for foreigners to settle there or own property. The wife of a friend was forced to sell her father's house (Brit ex-diplomat) when he died to a Swiss citizen.

• New Zealand: I was told (this is hearsay) that New Zealand is still in the '50s. For example, working wives still have to rush home to make sure the house is clean and supper is ready for "hubby". Also NZ is so far way, but the country is beautiful and warmer than Canada.

• Canada: the country's drawbacks are that it is under attack by our 5th Column (the Right-Wing media) to become more like the States. Alberta was originally settled by American homesteaders who left the States when the US census of 1890 declared the frontier was closed. Albertans talk like Canadians (we have a fairly uniform accent except for the Newfies - another story) but think like Texans. Our winters are ferocious except for the BC [British Columbia] coast and the Okanagan Valley - a "desert" with hardly any winter in the BC interior. In Victoria, BC's capital, and Vancouver, you get flowers in February - it's milder than NYC. But in the rest of Canada you'll freeze your butt off in the winter.

thanks, Claude, for the site on "Becoming Canadian" - my husband and I too have discussed this but we have a friend who tried to do it a couple of years ago and got discouraged with the income/job requirements (she was a national park ranger part-time)- she couldn't prove she could support herself, and even with skills if your profession is significantly different (ie medicine) you have to almost retrain yourself to pass boards :( Barcelona was wonderful, we knew about Aznar & the history with Franco, but it seemed the people remembered a little more rebellion than any Americans I've been around the last few years (we have become such SHEEP!)
I agree we have to fight, but sometimes it is such a joy to leave the US and go somewhere the "S" word and sharing are not so hated!!

A bunch of Americans moving to Canada ... hmm ... perhaps you'll take capitalism with you and then the terrorists will follow.
That would be great. Then Canada could see what it's like.

NZ is so far way, but the country is beautiful and warmer than Canada.

Vancouver (the city and the island), the Canadian San Juans, Bamff, the coast of Nova Scotia, Prince Edwards Island, Hudson's Bay -- these are beautiful enough for anybody. And I LIKE cold weather -- keeps the blood circulating and the mind alert.

sometimes it is such a joy to leave the US and go somewhere the "S" word and sharing are not so hated!!

Look at how much federal money flows to the American outback -- Texas, the mountain West, etc. -- and you'll see that the red staters don't really hate socialism, they just hate having to admit how much they benefit from it.

How is a person who ditches one country for a "more inclusive, less selfish" country not considered exclusive and selfish?

These concerned people are only hastening the decline. Pussies.

DOH!

With fixed elections, coverups, republicans owning most of the media, conspiracies and the infamous Skull & Bones secret society installed in every level of the US government, its impossible to believe that things will get better in the USA anytime soon. We are on the treadmill to oblivion, the police state is here and it wants to stay.

If I could make a living in Canada I'd be there today... just not enough room for everyone who wants to go there.

Yeah, but what about our ancestors that left their home countries to come here? They weren't staying behind to fight and make the change they wanted to see happen at home... Immigrating and migrating to lands with better living conditions is a basic part of what it is to be human, living on the planet Earth.

It's wise to stick it out for a sensible period and see if things improve, and do what you can to improve it... but the mere fact that a group like the one in power here now can GET into power at ALL is an indication (IMO a valid indication) that maybe there are better places to live. I think that's what's going on here, with so many people looking for places to immigrate to.

Apparently, we have a cadre who are determined to see Canada dominate the world. They promise brutal, but polite, oppression.

I think Canada owes us an apology.

Apparently, we have a cadre who are determined to see Canada dominate the world. They promise brutal, but polite, oppression.

LOL. Here's how they say they're going to do it:

Infiltrating the USA and through a cleverly designed plan, destroying it, and using its resources for our own purposes.

So it appears David Frum was actually part of a diabolical Canadian plan to make our president look like a complete horse's ass.

Swwweeet.

See? As always, you Americans don't notice when we Canadians try to tell you something. It took 2 postings on the dangers of Canadian World Domination for you to notice! That's how they'll win! No one will notice it while it is happening!
*grin*

• New Zealand: I was told (this is hearsay) that New Zealand is still in the '50s. For example, working wives still have to rush home to make sure the house is clean and supper is ready for "hubby".

Ahem.

My offer still stands, Billmon. My family has been helping Americans resettle up here for two centuries already, and it's my turn. The CBC site, or this site will get you started. I'm expecting most liberals to hang around to try to unseat Dubya next year, and if that fails, start heading up here in droves. And yes, the winter weather is inhospitable in the parts of the country with decent job prospects, but you can always take winter vacations back in the US and tell other like-minded people what they're missing while you're down there. And BTW, Holland and Switzerland are good alternatives, but the weather's a lot like Southern Canada's. Can't say about NZ, but I've heard great things, though it's awfully far away.

NZ is so far way, but the country is beautiful and warmer than Canada.

Vancouver (the city and the island), the Canadian San Juans, Bamff, the coast of Nova Scotia, Prince Edwards Island, Hudson's Bay -- these are beautiful enough for anybody. And I LIKE cold weather -- keeps the blood circulating and the mind alert.

I've seen the Bay of Islands on a blue-sky summer day. I've seen Ngarahoe wreathed in cloud, and slept above the snow-line of Ruapehu. I've been surfing at Castlepoint, been invited to stay with relatives at Lake Wanaka, and rejected Queensland as too wet to spend a vacation and too up-and-down to tramp. I've seen dawn at One Tree Hill, and ogled optimistic females in short skirts negotiating Wellington's wind.

There are advantages to both beauty and a reasonable climate.

Please stay home: we have enough Marxists here already. Not all of us are pleased about the pot/gay marriage/no army/multi-culti/gun control situtation, so don't be fooled.

Some of us love Bush and the US(and Frum et al) and are ashamed of our wimpy, kneejerk leftist, lazy, socialist fellow citizens. You don't know how lucky you are. Again: stay home.

Hmmm -- the Canadian economy has grown faster than the American for the last few quarters, our government is running a surplus and our unemployment is lower -- so we "wimpy, kneejerk leftist, lazy, socialists" must be doing something right. :-)