"I hope our wisdom will grow with our power, and teach us, that the less we use our power the greater it will be."
Thomas Jefferson

I think the people are just dumb and will believe
anything the admin tells them and they Lie and
spin to a fairthewell. I know many are a Lot
busier than I am and just watch the news or get
distracted when they might hear something that
show them the lies, like they just read a headline
and not the story but I doubt many would understand
the facts if they read them and then They would
have to consider Many sources for form an
opinion which the Govt Doesn't even do and They
are educated so what can you expect from The
Simpsons ?

I agree with you 100%. Reading your blog is like reading my own thoughts. I was thinking the very same thing this morning. Somewhere in those poll numbers there is a body of 20% who support the war but don't want to pay for it. Now, that 40% who are willing to pony up, well, I think they are badly mistaken, but I can respect that they are willing to at least pay in money. But that 20%, those wretched beings should be put to the whip.

The spinelessness that you talk about has caused untold suffering for the peoples of Vietnam, Cambodia, Thailand and now Iraq, not to mention the people of Palestine from the hands of our proxy warriors in Israel.

This country that was the beacon of hope for peoples of the world since the end of the Second World War has descended with dismaying dizziness into a supine nation of sheep and moral cowards, led by a mental midget.Like you say we deserve the leadership we now have. The late William
Shirer was more than prescient when he discerned identical traits between our population and prewar Germany.I now wish he was wrong.

Why should it be surprising that we want the war to both be successful and cheap?

That's the American way! Tax cuts and a balanced budget and social security...who needs fiscal responsibility when we can have the economic policies of a third world nation?

We need to face facts right now. When we say 'reinforcements' we are really saying 'draft'.

The army is straining to maintain even present force levels. They have surrendered the initiative and are hunkering down on the defensive. Meanwhile the Iraqi resistance gets bolder every day as the political structure decays further into oblivion.

The longer the security situation is allowed to fester, the tougher the stabilization job ultimately becomes. Indeed, the current situattion may be so bad that I fear that we may have already lost Iraq, although we won't probably realize it until Christmas or maybe March at the latest.

But we CAN'T send reinforcements even if we wanted to. The reserve units are already fully committed and the rest of the Army is pinned down from West Africa to the Balkans to North Korea. Moreover we can count on few if any foreign troops. Where is the cavalry going to come from? There is only one answer, and it's not pretty. Conscription.

Will it work to save our bacon, or are we simply pouring more blood into the sand? Even if it works, is it worth it? Will the public stand for it? These questions and more are going to become apparent much sooner than most of us think; so we'd better start questioning now. We're in more trouble than we realize.

We're just going to have to keep relearning "the lessons of Vietnam" for a while. Maybe, after long enough, they'll become "the lessons of Iraq." But we have to learn them. Laziness is for empires on the downswing, not on the way up.

Somewhere in those poll numbers there is a body of 20% who support the war but don't want to pay for it.

I know who these people are... they're the same rightwing bigmouths who used to call me a coward when they found out I came to Canada out of opposition to the Vietnam War.

They're all in favor of war, right up to the point where THEY have to serve in it or pay money for it.... chickenhawks!

And since the chickenhawks are currently in charge of the US government, it's not too surprising that they are hoodwinking the citizenry to believe that the US can enjoy all the fun of kicking somebody's butt without having to pay the price.

Of course, these jokers will be long gone when the bill arrives, and will begin loudly decrying the Dems' financial ineptness. That's why in a way, it would be poetic justice for these morons to get a second term just to force them to deal with the mess they made in the first term!

But, of course, I live in Canada, so that's easy for me to say--- so I take it back, with sincere apologies to the good people war all over the US who are shocked and awed by the Bush Leaguers.

One thing to remember aout polls is that the people asked are those without the ability to avoid someone with a clipboard.

"The idea of throwing more money at the corporate crooks who gave us Halliburton, and Enron, is nauseating. So is the thought of sending more troops to die in the desert. But the status quo is simply unbearable. Either the troops have to come home -- all of them -- or the money and the reinforcements have to start flowing the other way."

And therein lies the rub. Poll participants may no more think about what happens on the other side of the decision any more than the neo-cons. The question is hard enough to answer honestly, but the really troubling part is what happens after you make the choice between pull-em all out or feed 'em what they need.

Either way the whole situation is FUBAR and will remain so for a very long time. And either choice will not put near any sort of endgame.

I'm with you for part of this, but giving Bush $87B is something I'm really against, until and unless we have a full and complete audit of how that money is getting spend -- something called transparency and accountability is needed. How much of that money will be going to Halliburton's bottomline? I still keep thinking that as Riverbend said -- give contracts to the Iraqis to rebuild their own country, cut off Halliburton and Betchel until they account for every penny and cut their profit levels to 2-3% above costs and make sure those costs are reasonable.

But I do agree that Americans that supported this war should be very willing to put up themselves and their children for the war effort and to personally donate 10% of their income to cover the expenses. That includes Mr. Cheney too.

I'll defend the part of the American citizenry who want to stay in Iraq without paying any of the costs. When I think of these people I imagine a beer-swilling, redneck dittohead (sorry, beer-swilling, redneck dittoheads) but the fact is that this group has to also include some goodnatured, sober people. So why are their policies so conflicted? It's because they trust the government and their patriotism is deeply rooted. They were promised, by very evil people, that Iraqis wanted this war and that Saddam threatened the world. Hitler was invoked! They can't believe that the government would lie to them and kill their own soldiers - or that they could be duped again with the same tricks. I'm mad at them too because they fall for the same crap over and over and they allow evil people to rule, but I can see that they're coming from fear and, in a twisted way, love for the Iraqis. They can't hear the truth because it's too horrible for them to consider. They'd rather watch football and the new fall shows. The trick will be to educate them in peaceful ways that will reach them.

I don't know if this is an indication that Americans are really stupid, or just that pollsters are very good at asking stupid questions. People will say that they want lower taxes, more services, and a balanced budget, but I think that most people realize that this is impossible, indeed absurd. Do Americans actually prefer a regressive tax system to a progressive one, or do they think that most politicians are controlled by lobbyists and donors and won't listen to their wishes? Doesn't the abyssmal ignorance of Americans about foreign affairs have something to do with the inadequate and often misleading information provided by their education, mass-media, and political system, not just their intelligence?
Are Americans really dumber than people elsewhere?

A great deal of what is called 'American exceptionalism' is really about fooling people into accepting the preferences of a small oligrachy rather than the national interest.
I'm not just talking about the enormous impact and dubious value of polls, but the dumbed-down tabloid news (compare CNN to CNNI, let alone the BBC), the manipulation of electoral districts by state legislatures, the conservative judicial opposition to limiting campaign spending (because spending money on campaigns is 'a form of free speech'!), and the archaic electoral college system. How many people supported the recent FCC media deregulation? Around 2%? But that 2% was far more powerful than the other 98%. Given that we live in a democracy only in name and an oligrachy in fact, it is the rulers and not their subjects that should be held accountable.

Maybe a part of the problem has to do with Purple people ?

"These are the people who hate big government budgets and world-changing government programs, yet whose faces turn purple with excitement when that same government racks up huge debts to pay for world-changing programs that involve bombs, troops and missiles."

A great deal of what is called 'American exceptionalism' is really about fooling people into accepting the preferences of a small [oligarchy] rather than the national interest

Wow. What a zinger.

TABLE OF CONTENTS -- War is a Racket, Smedley D. Butler, General USMC, (Ret.)

I. War is a Racket
II. Who Makes the Profits?
III. Who Pays the Bills?
IV. How to Smash this Racket!
V. To Hell with War!

WAR is a racket. It always has been.

It is possibly the oldest, easily the most profitable, surely the most vicious. It is the only one international in scope. It is the only one in which the profits are reckoned in dollars and the losses in lives.

A racket is best described, I believe, as something that is not what it seems to the majority of the people. Only a small "inside" group knows what it is about. It is conducted for the benefit of the very few, at the expense of the very many. Out of war a few people make huge fortunes.

...

50%+1 of Americans think life is an action movie. Proof is CNN selling DVDs of bush's war.

If I believed Iraq really was the central front in the war against terrorism -- instead of a stupid and deadly distraction from the real war on terrorism -- I wouldn't quibble about the pricetag.

i'd still "quibble" about the pricetag... and here's why: terrorism isn't the only, or even the most important, problem we have (global warming and unsustainable fossil fuel dependency come to mind). when we we spend hundreds of billions of dollars on the war on iraq, we are choosing NOT to spend the the money on other things.

Coulda sent a manned mission to Mars for $80B (not that this would be a good use for the money or engineering time).

Coulda started the national rejiggering to the Hydrogen Economy.

Coulda rebuilt every school in the US.

Coulda installed a floating solar -> hydrogen converter out in the pacific capable of meeting the Western US's energy needs.

Instead,

"My Grandparents Cut Taxes and Threw Away $3 Trillion on a Unilateral National Security State, And All I Got Was This Lousy T-Shirt"

Night Owl said: The army is straining to maintain even present force levels, and that sounds logical. So how come we keep meeting the recruitment goals? I went hunting using the US Army figures for the last few years to compare their goals for active duty recruitment:

1999 ---- 74,000
2000 ---- 80,000
2001 ---- 75,800
2002 ---- 79,500
2003 ---- 73,800

Why have we lowered our requirements this year? Why hasn't this year's goal been upped to cover our present needs in Iraq, Afghanistan, N. Korea, Phillipines, Liberia, all the places we make mischief in? Back a few years ago when recruitment was slow, the Army permitted high school dropouts to enroll. What are they going to do this time?

Curiously, it makes me wonder whether all those dummies in Washington really did believe that Iraq was going to be easy and quick. What a surprise for them, although not for many Americans who had brains to think with.

I am not a fan of Britteny Spears, the pop idol, she may be a very smart woman, maybe not. But I think her recent quote about Bush "just trust him" and have faith is a representative point of view for many Merkans, especially the 20-30 age group. Most probably reflect their parents views. Face it folks, the 60's are gone. I guarantee that if we re-instituted the DRAFT, old W's popularity would be history.

46% want to see troop levels reduced

Give 'em time, the Iraqis are working on fulfilling that one.

6000 down, 142000 more to go.

The draft is of no use and poltical poison. The military doesn't want it and it is very, very expensive.

I don't see any scenario where a draft bill passes Congress.

Besides, of course there's a disconnect. And it's not because people are stupid. They've been told one thing by the President, but they're seeing something else. The President says everything is fine, yet is asking for an installment of $87b. That doesn't indicate everything is fine.

Bush is screaming "this is about terra", but people are seeing anarchy on TV.

So the numbers reflect their confusion. Not spinelessness.

90% of Americans believe there is a benevolent old man in the sky taking care of everything.

Nuff said.

The contradictions reasons to be in Iraq are mind boggling.
Now its the "central front" in the "war on terra" (tm). So we are going to fight the terrorists in a country that had nothing really to do with the guys who attacked the US on 9/11. We also want them to get invloved in their own security by battling the Saddam "dead enders" AND, as the result of our being there, fight OUTSIDERS coming into Iraq to fight us. But of course we don't want to send anymore forces or really spend the money. The reason given is that its better to fight them "over there" than here. That is not close to a just and moral approach. In the end its not possible to fight the outsiders who the administration claims are coming to Iraq and rebuild the country at the same time.
The "Flypaper" strategy is an empty, destructive, and immoral concept. The other huge flaw to the "bring 'em on" strategy is that it will create organizational structures and capabilties in a jihadi force NEXT door to Saudi Arabia. I think we are going to see a reverse flow back to Kuwait and Saudi Arabia and sabotage of the Saudi oil industry.
The stupid NeoCons have unleased a chain of events they cannot control. Smedly Butler was right this is a racket.

Using polls as an instrument to bash the American polity really seems besides the point.

The point of a poll is to frame a political position. The idea that there exists:

a) a beast called public opinion
b) a way of telling what it thinks

is one of the monstrous 20th century ideas born of positivistic sociology and should be laid to rest.

What these polls say is our elected leaders are spineless cowards pursuing an idiotic foreign policy... nothing new there.

the main problem with the people of this country today is the complete disregard for the rest of the world. most people do not read the newspaper or watch the news, and if they do, they take 'at face value' what is being said, instead of recognizing what the source is and seeking out both sides of the story to try and get the whole truth. american media has allowed this to happen, by becoming whores of corporate america, but i think it is up to each individual to know what is going on and to fight when we are being screwed; and we are being screwed.

unfortunantely, we are more content watching survivor and guzzling gas in our SUV's while sucking down a big mac and chatting on our cell phones to even consider caring about anything else...a society of ignorant animals has developed, much to the satisfaction of 'those in charge', and sadly enough, it seems that they are the majority.

disconnect, yes. when there's a reconnect and all the lights go on, there will be hell to pay.

it can happen. Billmon, you want to emigrate to Canada -- read up on the 1993 election here. i hope the US is due for the same sort of massacre.

CJW said Why have we lowered our requirements this year? Why hasn't this year's goal been upped to cover our present needs in Iraq, Afghanistan, N. Korea, Phillipines, Liberia, all the places we make mischief in? Back a few years ago when recruitment was slow, the Army permitted high school dropouts to enroll. What are they going to do this time?

One thing they are doing already is recruiting Latino immigrants and promising citizenship at the beginning of the tour (used to be the end). Read this in I think LATimes in the last week. CJW, thanks for the rundown on recruiting goals. It would be interesting to know if recruiting results have fallen off in the last few months, though I can't imagine that info is easy to get at this point.
There is no chance whatsoever of Bush introducing draft legislation during this term, so there really is a race against time (and attrition and increasingly confident opposition) to get things stabilized in Iraq. I'm less and less convinced that it can happen. Which means that a new administration inherits one unholy mess.

Maybe I have too much faith in my fellow Americans, but having mutually incompatible desires isn't quite the same as demanding that they be fulfilled. Proper polling could reveal this distinction.

I think people are probably waiting for there to be a plan that makes sense. They were for the invasion, and were told it would be cheap. What is going on now in Iraq looks like the money would be wasted, and they don't see a reason to add more to the waste of money. If we want to see polls that make sense we need leaders who are willing to level with the people being polled.

The only plan that makes sense at this stage is to get Bush and his cronies out of office. As individuals, we each control one vote. As campaign workers we can help bring dozens if not hundreds of votes to an opposition candidate. With such desperate times, I can't think of any valid excuse that someone could use not to do some volunteer work.

To keep my sanity (a debatable point of course), I have this on my home page to remind me it won't last forever:
http://bushclock.lose.com

Using polls as an instrument to bash the American polity really seems besides the point.

I'm not a poll worshiper, but I do think they can provide important clues about the direction of public "opinion," which does exist, even if it can't be defined adequately with positivist techniques.

One of the things that struck me about the attitude I'm talking about -- we support the war but we don't want to pay for it -- is that it shows up in different responses to different questions in a number of different polls.

Good point Billmon but with Enron came some whistle-blowers, with bush's war nothing but whistle-ass.

...but with Enron came some whistle-blowers,...

Who? Watkins who reported accounting problems to Ken Lay? By that standard John Dean was a "whistle-blower" when he told Nixon that their was a "cancer in the White House."

Are Americans really dumber than people elsewhere?

Oh yes. At this point in time, the country's national IQ is probably at the lowest its ever been. The rest of the world for the past year and a half has been scratching its head in wonder while the (US)Americans sit at home scratching their balls. And now that the true extent of US Stupidity has been revealed on the international stage, we are beginning to see the first signs of real empowerment among the developing world. Case in point - the World Trade Organization talks just collapsed because developing nations bonded together and for the first time in recorded history and gave the finger to the traditional US-Euro rulemakers. Ultimately, I believe that if anything brings the country down, it will be its own apathetic stupidity - it's embrace of things like Jackass rather than matters of real concern - and I wonder if this is not what the terrorists we are supposed to be fighting have determined as well? The easiest and least expensive method of bringing a country to its knees is by promoting its inept leadership and exploiting the stupidity of its people. If there is another attack 6 months before election time, I suspect that this will have been their strategy.

One thing they are doing already is recruiting Latino immigrants and promising citizenship at the beginning of the tour (used to be the end).

I'm amazed that this has not been picked up in the world of blogging, as it is at least a week old. I wonder if this is even constitutionally acceptable (are Latinos being singled out, while Asians do not receive this "offer", for example?). And what sort of immigration norms are being circumvented - afterall, there is a standard process for applying, which takes much longer than it does to sign the Army's Recruitment forms. What is going on here?

How can we expect these people to have learned any of the lessons of Vietnam? Look what they were all doing back then - snorting coke or concentrating on "other priorities."

You don't go far enough in your discourse, Billmon... The great, unmentionable is, of course, 9/11 -- the rest of the world debated whether the US had, at least in part, brought it upon itself... Shades of Mossadegh, Pinochet, etc. In the so-called civilized world, the balance tilted in our favor THIS TIME, but who speaks for the victims of Dresden?

Who will stand with us NEXT TIME?

The rest of the world is aware of these polls, and a British friend of mine several months ago said, "we gave you a pass on Bush last time, but if you reelect him, you're on your own."

Could it be that it starts dawning on the public opinion that the most expensive military machine ever built might not be overwhelmingly effective ?

This is what asymetrical warfare is : millions of dollars worth of US equipment being blown up by 100$ a round RPGs. Seeing all that good tax money going up in smoke is probably no incentive to pouring some more cash in this mess for your average taxpayer.

So I kind of understand the rationale for the attitude of approving of the war, and not wanting to pay for it. When you keep telling your people you're the best, you can expect some people to actually believe it. These won't see why they should pay more for a better military : they're already supposed to have it. To win the war ? The Prez already declared victory and all that. Plus, Joe Sixpack thinks it's alright, because all these action movies he's been watching always have the good guys on the winning side. Americans barely bleed in these movies, and dead bodies don't stink. I'm sure Joe will continue this way, because it's so much more convenient to keep on watching these movies than getting involved with reality. You know, reckoning there is a problem is the first step in actually starting to deal with it. And that's a dificult step to take, as it involves, at some point, disagreeing with the government.

Ultimately, I believe that if anything brings the country down, it will be its own apathetic stupidity - it's embrace of things like Jackass rather than matters of real concern.

Now don't go blaming Jackass for the decline of the American empire. It's a great show -- good, clean homemade American goofiness. I think Jackass is the kind of thing the rest of the world likes about America. Nobody does stupid pratfalls better than us. And I think I can say that without fear of contradiction.

The problem isn't Jackass, the problem is that the American people are jackasses, and increasingly can't tell the difference between reality and the stuff they watch on TV.

Jackass is the kind of thing the rest of the world likes about America

Probably true

That's the jackass in the white house we have a problem with.

Nice comeback Marie.

On the Army's recruiting goals:

Why have we lowered our requirements this year? Why hasn't this year's goal been upped to cover our present needs in Iraq, Afghanistan, N. Korea, Phillipines, Liberia, all the places we make mischief in?

My cynical side says that it's because they don't want to set a public goal they don't think they can meet. If they set the bar low, they can claim "Army exceeds recruiting goal in Time of War(TM)! The American People do so support us!"

As for the draft, I'm under the impression that congressional authorization is still in effect from the 1970s, and all that's required is executive authorization to "activate" it. Am I wrong?

It is astonishing to think of real wars where American and British citizens stateside had to make enormous sacrifices and dramatic lifestyle changes in order to support the cause. Contrast that with how Americans -- and this Administration -- have approached this war. We support the war as long as it means we don't have to change one precious detail of our unreal American lives. We'll buy lots of things, we'll watch lots of TV and movies, we'll go shopping and our most meaningful discussion of the day will revolve around the possible reasons for J-Lo's breakup with Ben.

As you point out, Bush has never asked Americans to make any sacrifices for this war. He even dishonestly suggests that we can pay for the war and still pay for everything else, while cutting taxes.

Who should take the blame for this mess? Americans who are better informed about American Idol than they are about politics and the world, who blindly accept whatever their leaders say is true and necessary? Bush and his ilk, for misleading and poorly advising the American people? The media, who have become uncritical conduits for propaganda?

On the one hand, T.S. Elliot was wrong: the world will not end in a whimper. (Looks like we're headed for an increasingly loud apocalypse.) But he was right about one thing: the silence of those who uncritically allow us to taken to the brink may be responsible for our downfall.

If the price of freedom is eternal vigilance, then it is no wonder that we are in this jam. America has squandered its attention on happy meals, strip mall shopping sprees, and Survivor.

It's not just your imagination, if you sense that history is being pulled backward. Whatever hell George W. Bush can create in the next 400 days or so will be as nothing compared to the madness he might release in another term as President. If Bush wins in 2004, expect a Draft alright, expect regional war, and count on stark political repression here at home.

The draft would make no difference to the majority. They have so far been fine with the incremental increase in the scope of our war. A draft lottery system with no college deferrals would make a big difference to the people that own the voice and then change would come, I think. (I am basing this on the Vietnam era)

The big difference between Vietnam and now, I think, is the tremendous growth and power of the Christain right. You really have to get to know these people up close and personal. Go to their churches. You might then realize what a scary group of people they are. When I was growing up down south (the bible belt), what now passes for mainsream Christains were then a very small minority of extremists and were considered to be fairly nutty ( the world is ending soon crowd). Just as in politics, there were more liberal or more conservative congregations, but in the sixties most mainstream Christains would have been comfortable with evolution, etc..

Not to say there are not fundamentalists all over the USA, but I can only speak for the south through the late eighties when I was there. From what had been a solid acceptance of the seperation of religion and politics to the advent of voter sample ballots being handed out on the church steps was an IMMENSE and PROFOUND change. You have to get to know these people. They are told and believe that they need only read the bible and go to church and listen to the church leaders to get all the information they need to know. These people do not involve themselves with news of any kind. The popularity of the "rapture" series of books should not be ignored. As a thinking person you must get and read any one in the series and then start connecting the dots. These people believe in the rapture and to get there you have got to have armagaddon and the anti-christ etc.. They believe that is what is happening now and they are CHEERING it on! These are not people worried about democracy, pollution or having enough oil. When the rapture comes its a whole new earth.

They support the neo-cons to get their rapture, the neo-cons welcome their support to get their world domination thing going, and the Zionists take support from both because they think it will save the Jewish state. All in all it is a very scary mess.

What is to say when the #2 story on MSN, after the hurricane is "Did Afflack dump J Lo?" at 9:35 PDT.

Top story on Aljazeera right now is "Hugh Blast at Russian Security HQ"

Sorry about the previous posts to Aljazeera not working. As Werner Dieter Thomas says, I do indeed have Microsoft software. Initially I was able to go Alzazeera from Riverbend and my
Favorite list, but no longer. The problem seems to be with the http:// and www. in the address list on explorer.

I will try again (lesson #2), except don't see the above the ,. (it won't print) to try and plug it in and practice and don't see a cancel either?

Oh well if you know how to get to Aljazeera, what shows on my address bar is http://english.aljazeera.net/article/News/GlobalNews/Hugh+blast+at+Russian+sucurity+HQ+htm

Joanna, you can get onto Al-Jazeera here. Remember, the site is continually being hacked into by great patriots worldwide. So if you can't get in, try again later. They have a real problem keeping the English site up and running.

http://english.aljazeera.net/HomePage

The general consensus here seems to be that Bush won't push the draft button until after the 2004 election. But the tragic fact is that we simply may not be able sustain this miserable 'holding' pattern for another year without a draft.

"A Congressional Budget Office report this week said that the Army cannot sustain an Iraq occupation force of the present size—150,000 troops—beyond March 2004 without getting assistance from international forces, more National Guard units, or more U.S. marines, or keeping its own soldiers in Iraq for tours longer than one year. These are just some of the reasons why many experts worry that the Army, which has taken decades to evolve into what is generally regarded as the best in the world, could be on the verge of a stress fracture."
Army troops, budget stretched to the limit

The longer we wait to face up to this sad reality the worse it will be. We're in a bad spot, and IMO have three choices:

1) We find some way to increase troop levels quickly, or
2) We sit back until after the election and watch while the 3rd division is bled white, or
3) We pull out ASAP.

Yet without international troop support (unlikely), The ONLY way to get more boots on the ground is via the DRAFT. So we'd better start deciding right now what we really want to do. If we wait until next Fall the Army may have already suffered a modern day Cannae.

Most Americans suffer from a classic case of cognitive dissonance.

Enough of the "Americans are stupid" stuff. Most Americans, me included, don't pay much attention to the details. It is, after all, why we have representative democracy, rather than direct democracy.

In the Kosovo campaign, many mistakes were made, as documented by the skeptics in that war. But I had no idea, until I went looking explicitly for criticisms of the current war. I went looking because I didn't trust George Bush to get it right

If I had not gone looking, I would much more likely have been 100% in favor of the current adventure.

In short: it's not a matter of stupidity, so much as it's a matter of trust, both of government and of the press.

In short: it's not a matter of stupidity, so much as it's a matter of trust, both of government and of the press

I believe it was the Marquis de Sade who said that trusting the wrong people will cause you more damage than an enemy could ever do. I hate to admit that he, of all people, was right.

Mary Ellen Moore

Differences between the Viet Nam and Iraq Wars:

You are absolutely right about the rise of the religious right. I could not and would not discuss religion or politics with my brother and his wife. She was reading one of the “Left Behind” books when I was visiting. But, I did have to mention that the Bush Administration schemes will have to revive the draft. Their sons are Teenagers.

Another difference from 40 years ago is that the Bush Administration is using propaganda and lies as a matter of policy. Their “Mission Accomplished” or “War is the Last Resort” pronouncements are stomach turning.

Viet Nam was a surrogate battle in a real “Cold War”. Iraq is a surrogate war in the “War on Terrorism”; except, there is no “War on Terrorism”. There is a conflict between western Christian materialism and Muslim fundamentalism as carried out by persons and male gangs but it is not a war. It is just that through the organization skills and contacts, the Muslim Fanatics have and can do more damage than LA Gang Bangers or the Anarchists of a century ago.

Similarities between the Viet Nam and Iraq Wars:

The media still continues not to report the actual news. There has been no real political opposition to the Bush Administration except the Howard Dean Surge. Five months after the build up in Viet Nam there was no political opposition. It had to await 3 years until McCarthy in 1968. Also, like the Johnson Administration, the Bush Administration with their policies crashing all around them, refuse to see or admit there are problems. Both Administrations were/are incompetent.

Most Americans, me included, don't pay much attention to the details. It is, after all, why we have representative democracy, rather than direct democracy

LOL. And how exactly does one go about deciding which representative will best represent one's own perspectives without any knowledge of the details? No, it couldn't be, could it...:

it's a matter of trust, both of government and of the press

Oh my, that answer speaks for itself :p

"No earthly consideration could induce my consent to contract such a
debt as England has by her wars for commerce, to reduce our citizens
by taxes to such wretchedness, as that laboring sixteen of the
twenty-four hours, they are still unable to afford themselves bread,
or barely to earn as much oatmeal or potatoes as will keep soul and
body together. And all this to feed the avidity of a few millionary
merchants and to keep up one thousand ships of war for the protection
of their commercial speculations." --Thomas Jefferson to William H.
Crawford, 1816.

"There [is a measure] which if not taken we are undone...[It is] to
cease borrowing money and to pay off the national debt. If this cannot
be done without dismissing the army and putting the ships out of
commission, haul them up high and dry and reduce the army to the
lowest point at which it was ever established. There does not exist an
engine so corruptive of the government and so demoralizing of the
nation as a public debt. It will bring on us more ruin at home than
all the enemies from abroad against whom this army and navy are to
protect us." --Thomas Jefferson to Nathaniel Macon, 1821.

So, what else have we forgotten in the last 180 years?

Lupin, Kurt Vonnegut speaks for the people of Dresden. cf Slaughterhouse Five .

America is in a big heap of trouble in present day Iraq. It's like a lot of the old ghosts - Philippine Insurrection, Grenada, Gulf War I, Panama, Peru, Angola, Indonesia, Iran, Nicaragua, etc. etc. - are out of the closet and busy haunting the American psyche. Who will exorcise these spirits? Who will provide the necessary collective therapy? It certainly won't be the neocons. The progressive left? A very shaky maybe.

Jim S
I need to learn to spell correctly one of these days-Christian. I think alot of lying was going on in Vietnam too, but there was a big difference in Johnson's social policies. I wonder if maybe he shook hands with the devil to do some good things and the whole thing just spiraled out of control. But clearly, when middle class sons and their parents began worrying sick over lottery #'s, things started to change. That was what was smart about the lottery system, once things began to equalize, well, communist, sommunist-my son is not going period think took over.

So you are aware of the rapture books. I use to argue that reading is such a good thing that it really does not matter what is being read, as long as a person reads with some regularity. I am going to have to rethink that now. I have noticed what seems to be an interesting cross section of people reading these books and that is so surprising when clearly it is the Christian version of 70 virgins from allah.

Another difference between Vietnam and Iraq, and this could be a big plus: Today's 18-year-old cannon fodder can vote! And if anything can cure the general apathy of young adults who have not bothered to exercise that right, this will be it. They will probably end up our most enthusiastically participating bloc of voters.

They will probably end up our most enthusiastically participating bloc of voters.

Yeah, that's just what the American electorate needs: another group of people who have only one issue out of which to construct their entire political worldview.

Now, if before those people bothered to learn something before they went out and voted for anyone who promised to do away with the draft, then we might see some honest-to-goodness political change. But it's highly unlikely; the public's tendency to prefer ignorance is what got us into this mess in the first place. (Whether you mark the beginning of said mess at the election of 2000, or sometime later.)

This poll should be rather disquieting for the admin, I think. It shows that the people are quite willing to parrot the official propaganda, but balk at giving money/time/lives. So the propaganda doesn't work! Interesting.

CJW, thanks for the info about Al-Jajeera. Now it is beginning to make sense, typing that address in is sending me to some Korean site in Korean?? Most times I can get there from "Favorites", but have also had to do a search and go that way.

--most American's are stupid ----
they aren't stupid; a lot of them don't care, and I believe this comes out of a feeling of helplessness, so what J Lo does or doesn't do is of more interest and more satisfying. For many it is back to the days of, never talk about politics or religion - but we sure can talk about money and how much things cost.

I believe it was the Marquis de Sade who said that trusting the wrong people will cause you more damage than an enemy could ever do. I hate to admit that he, of all people, was right.

The poor Marquis. Me thinks, he holds the all time world record as a writer to be read, entirely, unabridged, and uncensored, while so commonly damnified and refered to.
A good example on how censorship in an open society works successfully.

Above all, the good Marquis must be seen as an important intellectual forefather of the French Revolution. No other author hammered the point home better, on how absolute power corrupts absolute. It just shattered the public pretense of the "Noble" class to be, well, noble.
A simple reading of "Justine" makes a good anti-dote to Brittany Spears' "just trust him".

Now, to compare the treatment of de Sade's literary work [scroll down and click on TRANSLATIONS] in the 'Western Civilized Democracy" that the US wants to be, to the treatment of Salman Rushdie's "Satanic Verses" in the "Islamic World"....
well, I rest my case.

Correction:
I mean of course
as a writer not to be read

Mary Ellen Moore
I let some of my old hatred of LBJ slip through. Over the decades I’ve mellowed some. LBJ is truly a tragic figure. He blew his legacy on a war he knew that could not be won and slunk off to his Texas ranch to die. But, he still lied. A lot of GI's still died.

What is scarey about the Bush Administration is that they are religious radicals. According to their ideology they are not lying. Using any means necessary to achieve their goals is fine. Government is evil. Destroy it. Polls going down. Start a voluntary war.

Jim S

Why the hatred of LBJ? Was it just the war or what? I was so young at the time. Started college in the fall of 70. I really would appreciate your incite

Mary Elen Moore,

I am 10 years ahead of you, and it wasn't about the lottery, politics, Nixon, Kennedy, etc., it was about our friends dying, 18/19 year old kids that will never have kids or family or anything, and the death toll every night on TV, finally. There were no computers, and we had to wait for the news, and it was not popular to protest, because we were not supporting our troops. Kent State, the Democatic Convention in Chicago, Jerry Rubin, et al., California, the demonstration at Century City, it finally hit the American public that our men were dying for what?? Kennedy came on the scene and he was going to save us, and we hated Johnson. It wasn't about civil rights!

I will never figure out how our troops were treated so badly when they returned and continue to be so, (and look at the men who served in Korea).

And for me it will always be Viet Nam, not Vietman.

Back to "Monday Night Football", It is really hard to stay away from this bar!

Need to clarify, first Kennedy JFK, second, Robert

Keep this a secret, okey! My ATM sign on code, my forever identity is 5470, or 541970, so I was there and I bring it with me everyday I need to feed the got to buy something god. It is my way of saying I will not forget those times.

I saw so many of my friends and my first husband and my second deal with the reality of the sixties and the early seventies. I have sons who are 18 and 20, and I would go in their place or get on a train to Canada tomorrow to prevent them from going to the war then or the one now.

Its wierd, but as a women I bought and watch "Band of Brothers" and I know that was right, but this is obsolute sickness and I can not condone it. There is no place in my heart or my head for what we have done to the people of Iraq. I feel nothing but shame.

Mary Ellen Moore
Remembering back to May 4, 1970 brings back lots of emotions. I was a short-timer getting drunk every night at the NCO club or in the hooch. Treatment for fear, boredom and 7 day work week. Two of the more together guys I knew died. One in a fire-fight. Another, when a grenade got him instead of his lieutenant. A month later when I got back to the world I was a “Stranger in a Strange Land”. Finally twenty years later I had to stop drinking. Almost buried but the old hatreds, alienated, fear and grief pop out now and then without alcohol’s forgetfulness.

There are just too many damn similarities between the current Iraq War and the Viet Nam War to let the old sleeping dogs lie.

And now,
please fill me in with your riddles.
What happened May 4, 1970.
I'm not from this neck of the woods.

And, Jim, congrats on walking the line. Mean it.

Mary ellen/elen Moore,

Sounds like you have been through it and are a
survivor; nothing like being with a Viet Nam Vet!!
God bless you, you have seen HELL, through their eyes.

I sense you are still searching, check Tim O'Brien, "The Things They Carried" and "Going after Cacciato" and Graham Greene, "The Quiet American", never saw the movie, but it got good reviews. The great thing about fiction, it, with a good writer, touches our soul, and is full of truth.

"the Christian version of 70 virgins from allah"
Indeed, especially since the virgins may be no more than a misreading of Holy Scripture:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/saturday_review/story/0,3605,631332,00.html

About the draft: I don't think the US military is organized and prepared to handle significant numbers of draftees. They have to be trained and equipped before they can be sent anywhere. It would be many months before they would increase available manpower. In the meantime, they may well be a burden on the military because a lot of personnel is needed for handling and training them.

Greetings
Karl Heinz

Hamburg, Germany

draft?

The U.S. military is scared to death of a draft. The people who (more or less) voluntarily joined are angry now. Imagine what would happen if a draft were implemented. Did someone say "fragging"?

Werner, May 4, 1970 was the day that National Guard troops controlling a demonstration by anti-war protesters at Kent State University in Ohio opened fire on the students and hit thirteen of them, killing four. The blame was placed on having ill-trained inexperienced guardsmen trying to substitute for trained police, a very similar situation as we have right now in Iraq -- and just as deadly.

Ahh!
Thanks, didn't know the date.
Did know the Neil Young song, though.
Four Dead In Ohio

There's spinelessness (or really the impulse to go along), but it isn't in the disconnect between seeing it as important and not wanting to pay for it or see casualties.

The spinelessness comes in the very first questions. People say that the war and "protection" of Iraq are important because they've been told that and they want to give their "leaders" the benefit of the doubt. As in, "They say it's important, and they must know a lot I don't know." After all this time, most people still don't want to say outright that they're being played for suckers.

Those first questions have to be thrown out. Everything after that is pretty consistent, actually, and I think you're a little off-base here.

I'd only heard vaguely of the rapturesque stuff Mary Ellen Moore talks about above, so I Googled it and checked out some of the links from Tim LaHaye's site and got this: http://www.familyrapturelegacy.com/PAGE3.HTML

Now this is truly scary stuff. I remember reading Hannah Arendt ages ago (Eichmann in Jerusalem) and one of the points she makes is why didn't people protest the disappearance of their neighbours?

Well to me as a cynical and don't-think-it-can-never-happen-again european this stuff with its X-Files alien abduction overtones looks like a marvellous pre-emption to cover for any forthcoming political disappearances: "Oh they've gone, they just forgot to buy the certificate".

Forward planning of the highest order.